NOTES OF SEPTEMBER 15, 2014 RYE PLANNING BOARD SITE WALK

Rye Farm, 561 South Rd.

Final Revision B – Provided by the Rye Civic League

Present from the Planning Board: Phil Winslow, Jeff Quinn, Jerry Gittlein, Priscilla Jenness, Mel Low.

Present from the Conservation Commission: Chairman Sally King, Jaci Grote, Jim Raynes.

Present from the Rye Water District: Ken Aspen, Superintendent, Tom Clifford and Ralph Hickson, Commissioners.

Present from the applicant: Developer Don Cook, John Chagnon and Joe Muleddy, Ambit Engineering and Jim Gove, Gove Environmental Services, Inc.

Abutters and homeowners living within the Aquifer and Wellhead Protection District present: Pat and Tim Losik, Lois Taylor, Kathleen Casey, Jane Ireland, Deb Dallero, Mary Dallero, Bud Berrett, Carol Mennard, Zack Malpass, Patrick Merrill, Doran Morford and two others.

Also present: Peter Crawford, Sylvia and Cornelius Moynahan.

Editor’s note: For ease in finding particular sections using the archived video and audio on Vimeo, the elapsed time is indicated. Use the slider and the elapsed time indicated at the bottom of the video window to fast forward to the desired section. The video is available at https://vimeo.com/106316894/

Call to order and explanation by Rye Water District representatives (0:00 elapsed)

Kim Reed noted date and location of site walk.

(00:07 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: Could I have everyone's attention please...I’d like to call this meeting to order.   This is a meeting on a Major Subdivision by Applicant DD Cook Builders of Greenland, NH for property owned by Bonnie M. Eggleston Revocable Living Trust,  located at 561 South Road, tax map 4, lot 14, to subdivide into 5 lots, construct a 590 foot town road to access the lots, the existing dwelling on lot 1 and the other 4 lots to be buildable lots, the property is in the Single Residence and Aquifer and Wellhead Protection District, case 18-2014.

As part of the meeting we'd like to assign Jeff Quinn as a member, he is an alternate, in place of Ray Tweedie who is not here. And with that, Mr. Cook, if you could take us on a tour…

Don Cook: Sure.

Phil Winslow: One thing....following the tour or maybe first, lets ask the Rye Water District to show us a map because I asked them to be here to give everybody some sense as to where the water is in regards to the wellhead.

(01:20 elapsed)

Ken Aspen: I'm Ken Aspen and I've asked our engineering firm, Wright and Pierce, and what they ended up doing was superimposing the proposed subdivision in relation to where our wells are...these are the deep driven bed rock wells, and you'll note that there is a scale down here on the lower right hand (right here/map) that indicates this distance here equals 400 feet, and sanitary radius of these wells is 400 feet.  OK...and you can imagine that...so this is the closest one...

(?)…Is this the back edge of this property?

Ken Aspen: Correct, right here and these, like I said in the meeting, the other meeting, that these are deep driven bedrock wells and there really isn’t a very easy way to detect where the water is coming from in a deep bedrock well. A gravel packed well: yes….deep driven bedrock wells: no. Both of these deep driven bedrock wells were developed years ago with Cedar Run being the newest which is the closest.  Both bedrock wells are 525' deep and that’s down through the fractures and the well pumps are set at: one is at 145' and the other one is at 165'.  165' here...

(?)  Is that gallons per minute or what?

Ken Aspen: No, that's where the pump is set...that's where the intake for the pump is. And these are some of the best yielding bedrock wells in the Seacoast area.  The Cedar Run Well is rated for 340 gallons a minute and the Bailey Brook well is 325.  That's saying...

Don Cook: Can I point out one thing while you put that great map there?

Ken Aspen: Certainly.

(03:14 elapsed)

Don Cook: Just for the record, this is all the back land that we don't plan to touch. The only part of the development if we did it, would be back into here...right now we're not proposing even that, that would be later on...if we decide to do an RCD, but absolutely beyond that… this here diagonal on here…we are not anywhere near that ...that almost doubles the distance that we are from the well.

(?) What’s the date of that photo?

Ken Aspen: Approximately 2012.

Jeff Quinn: What’s the approximate distance from the wellhead to the edge of the property?

Ken Aspen: If you had to scale, I didn’t take a scale to it...here is the scale right here...

Jeff Quinn: 1000 feet?

Ken Aspen: Guess-estimating...yeah...looks like 1000 feet, possibly, maybe a little less give or take.

Don Cook: So way more than Marjorie Way was to the well.

Ken Aspen: Yes, but different type of well, Mr. Cook.

Don Cook: OK, Mr. Aspen.

Phil Winslow: OK, any other questions to Ken Aspen...(and Phil Winslow thanks Ken Aspen).

Developer Don Cook leads the site walk through the area to be developed (04:27 elapsed)

Don Cook: Start over here...this is centerline of the road so we will walk right down where the road will be and I can sort of show you the layout of the lots. You might want to have the Board members kind of see, be around as I point this out, Phil...what is the best way? (Phil agrees)… I mean, everyone is obviously welcome to look at it but, the Board members, in particular, I want to have them see.  

Phil Winslow: We’re all set.

(05:08 elapsed)

Don Cook: So, the road will...essentially that cherry tree is pretty much the center of the line, there is a mailbox on the other side.. that...you can’t see it but we can go out and look at that, we’ll go out in the road but I didn’t want to walk out there right now with all these people...when we return I’d like to go out there so you could see the lines of site and the potential drainage on there.  And I know you must have something to say so we can do that then.

Kathleen Casey: OK.

Don Cook: So the road comes in straight right through these stakes and goes through this point right there, it’s straight and parallel with the property line over here, we’re not going to touch any of that vegetation, that was the abutter's concern and were also going to add additional trees along this tree line to buffer the Puglisi’s. 

(?) What kind of trees?

Don Cook: Evergreens, you know most of these are leaf bearing.. so they asked for (evergreens).

Jeff Quinn: What is the distance from the center point to the edge of your excavation?

Don Cook: Normally, we have a 50' right of way, this is 70' for this first straight part.

John Chagnon: No, the road would be 13' plus 2’ ...15 feet

Don Cook: 45 feet, 46 feet.

Jeff Quinn: Yes.

Don Cook: The centerline right?

John Chagnon: Did you want to know to the property line or to the excavation?

Jeff Quinn: To the excavation, what you’re going to disturb.

John Chagnon: Yes, 15 feet.

Don Cook: Oh yes, yeah...’cause normally the road is in a 50' and we moved it over an extra 20' so we shouldn't have to touch that first 20'.  So, kind of coming out this way...if you come on out.

Kim Reed: Are we walking the centerline?

Don Cook: Yes.

(06:54 elapsed)

Don Cook: You can see from the plan that the road comes in straight and I've driven a stake here right where it takes a turn and then its going to head pretty much at that angle of that orange stake right there. That orange stake is in the middle of the road, is not the end of the road.  The cul-de-sac more or less is halfway into the tall trees on the left and probably about halfway into the shorter trees on the right.  So as far as the way the lots are divided it's just total coincidence that, this, Bonnie's been mowing it right there...that is pretty much the lot line, very, very close, between Lot 1 and Lot 2 of where it's cut, in fact that tree is almost smack dab on the property line right there.  You can see on the plan where the tree line is right here so that between the lots 2 and 3...splits roughly a little ways this way of the orange stake and a little bit into the woods, so more or less, the edge of the smaller trees right there make up the common line between 3 and 2. 

Phil Winslow: Where is 4?

Jim Raynes: Lot 1 is the Farm? 

Don Cook: Pardon me, sir.

Jim Raynes: Lot 1 is the Farm?

Don Cook: Yes, yah… yah...they're all…

Phil Winslow: Excuse me, just for the purposes of keeping records...when you ask a question, just state your name, if you would please, and your address so we can get it on record.

Jim Raynes: Jim Raynes.

Don Cook: So recognized.

Don Cook: So the farmhouse...yeah, I left that one off...so the farmhouse goes from basically all everything over there where the grass is cut short. and then Lot 4 goes right along these bushes right through here, in fact Mr. Epperson’s, I think his corner is right where that little spruce tree is right there. And the property line continues through the trees and it continues quite a ways, right here on the plan you can see where the tree line is which is really about halfway across the buildable area. (inaudible) and my plan would be to put the house, as much as I can toward that side, so we can save as many trees to keep the buffer so we’re trying not to cut any trees that do not need to be cut to try to maintain the buffers that are there.

Jane Ireland: Jane Ireland, 310 West Road… abutter, right here, on Lot 4…

Don Cook: Where that garage is?

Jane Ireland: No, that's Mr. Jennings....I live in the next one down and the large trees are in here. There is this issue about this stone wall which I know has been moved about 60 years ago, I think, probably used to be here (indicates location). I don’t know how much of those trees are affected in this lot.

Don Cook:  When we walk down through there I will show you what I'm doing.

Jane Ireland: Good...because I'm really concerned about making sure those trees mature, a nice stand of trees and we and the people before us have all cared for them.

Don Cook: I respect that, I respect that and I’m going to do everything I can and I’ll come and we can discuss that in more detail. So…

Jane Ireland: Thank you.

Don Cook: So, Lot 4 here, let's see...this point is right here...so this must be the beginning of it and it goes right along so the edge of the property line is pretty much where the hole is in the woods, where the woods road goes in, so this is pretty much the property line running from here to that opening (Lot 4) and going back in that direction.

(10:04 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: What do you have for acreage on Lot 4?

Don Cook: Ahh... Joe (inaudible)... right here Lot 4, 1.6, .56 or .66...all roughly an acre and a half except for Lot 5. OK...we can head right down and I'll keep walking to the back of the property. On Lot 3, those tall trees make up the back lot line ...in fact, the Losiks who are here...that is our common property line...the tall trees that go all the way back...so Lot 3 is pretty much encircled by tall trees in the back.  

Joe Mulledy: We all walk… toward the matted down grass over here…

Jeff Quinn: (inaudible) about test pits.

Don Cook: Mainly just…test pits…yellow one marks out the buffer, I can show the wetlands buffer.

(11:23 elapsed)

Don Cook: In the middle of those trees, those tall trees is where that wetlands if you look on Lot 3, there is a section of wetlands...we can walk back through there...it’s a heck of walk, weeds and everything up to here, but I'll walk through with anybody that wants to go but I'll do that on the way back so if you want to take the easier route you can come back this way and anyone who wants to walk the perimeter I'll do that as needed...that would be this property line right here and right here which is again is the tall trees that encircle that area and the wetlands are all flagged down here. There is a little bit of wetland in the back of 3.

Patricia Losik: So have you marked out the tear drop...the edge of the teardrop is where? The cul-de-sac…

Don Cook: Pretty much right here...the grade stake is right about here. The question is where is the cul-de-sac. It pretty much starts at the orange stake and its halfway into the shorter trees and halfway into the taller trees.  You can see where the woods road...we're going down is pretty much the left side as well going down the road.

Patricia Losik: So where is this point over here... have you marked that, so we can see it?

Don Cook: You're right in the middle of, I mean it’s roughly ...if you took that blue stake, I mean the blue flag...that's roughly the other side of that...give or take maybe 5'.  I can show you where the center is when we come back up, we had to do a pit test in the center of the circle to determine the drainage and you can see that when we come back.

Kim Reed: Ms. Losik, was that you talking? 

Patricia Losik: Yes.

Don Cook: The blue  flags that you see are where we did pit tests...different parts of the property. This is where the poison ivy starts (inaudible).

(13:27 elapsed)

Don Cook: So this stone wall, I'll hold the plan up...this stone wall is right here on Lot 4, the property line comes down around through there and is pretty much up to the fence, to my knowledge, I don't know exactly where it is, I know there's some stakes there but pretty much the fence right there.

Kim Reed: Is the stone wall going to be staying?

Don Cook: There will be no reason to take any...well, maybe…no...there should be no reason to take any of these stone walls.

Kim Reed: Is that a boundary marker?

Don Cook: No... there’s several stone walls that are just there, that are out in the middle.

Kim Reed: Could they be...could they stay if need be?

Don Cook: I don't think...let me see...this wall could stay because its essentially the side of the road, so the edge of the cul-de-sac would be on this stone wall to your right, but the one to your left can stay. 

Kim Reed: I just know a board member in the past has wanted stone walls to stay.

(14:25 elapsed)

Don Cook: Yes, that's right...here is the woods road and it’s cutting right into the edge of the cul-de-sac right there.

Jeff Quinn: Asks about location on the map.

Don Cook: We're right there on that corner... corner of this stone wall and that stone wall ...this is where we are right here. So pretty much the beginning of the cul-de-sac loop. OK...stop me if you want to ask any questions.

(inaudible)

Don Cook: No. no… the wetlands are way in the back, I'm going to walk through on the way back but not going to drag these people through there.  To your right hand side, right here, there's an orange flag, you can see where we dug the pit test, that is the center of the cul-de-sac. That was done as a pit test to see what the ability of the soil to absorb the water that would drain into the center of the…

Phil Winslow: This is not wetlands back here?

(15:28 elapsed)

Don Cook: No the wetlands on Lot 3 are way back here so it’s, if you come down here....the wetlands....are where the tall trees are way in the back so we would keep all the building up to the front, away from that wetlands.

Priscilla Jenness: Don, if you say you are going to drain into the center of the cul-de-sac...is that a rain garden there?

Don Cook: I’ll let Joe Muleddy...

Don Cook: Yes, the rain garden...Mrs. Jenness.

Don Cook: A rain garden in the center.

Don Cook: I haven't seen any poison ivy in this section until you get down to the back.  The stone wall ...there is a stone wall on the left all the way back as far as the property that we're gonna walk today unless you want to walk way back.

Phil Winslow: Does the elevation drop off as we go further? 

Don Cook: Yeah, the wetlands that we're gonna cross, everything is…sort of pitches here, I'll show you when we get to that point...where...right now this is all upland in through here.  I put yellow flags, you asked for the buffer...there is one right there...that is the beginning of the 75' buffer...the wetlands itself were marked with orange flags.  The first one if you can see it over there, right along the stone wall, is the beginning of the wet and it goes down in this direction...let’s see…a little off of that...that’s the beginning of this wet right here so we've marked out with yellow flags because there is already blue flags for pit tests and orange flags for other things so I did try to pick a color that didn't…

(17:11 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: Is that where the buffer begins...or is that where the wetlands begin?

Don Cook: The buffer is the yellow, the pink which started right in the there...you can see way back...that's the beginning of the wet...it's more obvious when you come down here as we get closer to...

Priscilla Jenness: So how far have we dropped from the road, how many feet lower are we than the road?

Don Cook: I don’t have the topo on this one Mrs. Jenness, but I can...

Priscilla Jenness: It looks to me… about 10' to me when I was looking at the larger…

Don Cook: Joe could tell from the complete set.

Priscilla Jenness: It looks like it went from about 85' to 75’.

Kim Reed: Could you wait until you give the answer before you continue moving on?

Don Cook: Sure...I've got all night...'til dark anyway.

Priscilla Jenness: Yes…from where we came in here to where we are now, which is about here...

Joe Mulledy: Up here it's 85', elevation 85' so about 75'….to about the top of the cul-de-sac is about 79'...and then down here we're at about 72'/73'.

Priscilla Jenness: I figured around 74’ where I was looking at the time....thank you.

Don Cook: Good eye.

(18:18 elapsed)

Jim Raynes: John, coming across the field back there...there is an awful lot of wetland grass/grasses that is...  what's going to happen in the field?

John Chagnon: So there are two questions there...you can ask Jim Gove about the wetlands grasses and as far as the field goes, the stakes were the center line of the road and then the people would just be building on the lots.

Sally King: I think he was wondering about fill...

Jim Raynes: Fill, or whatever you know, it used to be a farmer’s ditch across the center of that field up by (points)…

John Chagnon: The road is pretty close to grade so there's not a lot of fill until you get to the cul-de-sac, a little fill, as you cross the field, the road is going to be pretty close to the grade of the field.

Jim Raynes: You’re not adding a lot of fill?

John Chagnon: No, it’s really close…we're not.

Jaci Grote: You mean up there?

Jim Raynes: In the middle of the field there is a lot of sea grass, wetlands grasses.

Jim Gove: Well, it’s interesting Jim…ah…the situation is that the seasonal high water table there is over 30" down and…ah…the only reason I can think of is that it's there either it’s been brought in because of seed migration in but because it’s been an open field and perhaps it came in there because it was tilled at one point and left open....but the actual seasonal high water table is over 30” down in the field and its all loamy sand and sand so its pretty well drained.

Phil Winslow: Sorry sir, could you state your name?

Jim Gove: I'm Jim Gove, Gove Environmental Services...we did the wetland’s delineation and also the test pits out here.

Phil Winslow: Thank you.

The site walk continues beyond the cul-de-sac (20:11 elapsed)

Don Cook: OK, this stone wall right there on the right doesn't really mean anything, it's another one of those that is just sort of here and I'm not really sure it's a stone wall or just rocks that were piled up when the clearing to our right was there. Just beyond that, that is the corner right here... the back... no, not true...I gotta get my bearings… no that is that stone wall...there is another one…

Phil Winslow: So are we outside the cul-de-sac now?

Don Cook: Yeah...we are way beyond that...that stone wall is the corner, right here, of the Losik property right there, this point right here doesn't seem to be marked onto here...it wasn’t on the old plan as well...but I do know that's the property line that's coming in on the right hand side.

Carol Mennard: Carol Mennard, 495 South Road...Where is the end of this? 

Don Cook: I believe we are right there at the end of the cul-de-sac right here, the far end, because that stone wall, I’m very sure is what's going off in that direction right there…so we’re coming up here and I would put it right in this area.

Carol Mennard: So what would be the elevation at the high point right here?  Oh no…that's the low point, is this the high point, the berm, of the cul-de-sac...that would be the berm?

Joe Mulledy: Yeah, we're about 78.5' around the edge of it.

Carol Mennard: And, what is the ground level?

Joe Mulledy: Ah...the ground is about 75’.

Carol Mennard: Right now it's 75’, where we're standing.

Joe Mulledy: Right there, that's where we're standing?

Patricia Losik: At that corner it’s 75’?

Joe Mulledy: It's 75 around there (points to corner).

Patrick Merrill: And what's the elevation of the field?

Joe Mulledy: The field varies.

Don Cook: When you first enter from the field?

Patrick Merrill: Well, there was just a mention of…

Phil Winslow: Excuse me sir, could you state your name?

Patrick Merrill: 494 Central Road...there was mention made of some marshland grasses or whatever in the field and at that time, I believe, Mr. Gove said the seasonal high water was 30" below the grade we walked through and I'm just trying to get a reference to what natural grade is in the field and if road is, and if proposed elevation of the road is going to be roughly the same as natural existing grade, what is natural existing grade, first off? Of the field?

Joe Mulledy: It dips off pretty quickly as you get toward the cul-de-sac, but it’s in the range of between 75’ and, I'm sorry 77’ and... 79’.

Patrick Merrill: No, I mean back in the field.

Joe Mulledy: Oh further back?

Patrick Merrill: Range of sight... my eyes… I’m 6'4”...so 30” below 85', we’ll give it four feet... four feet below 85 would be what.

Joe Mulledy: 81’.

Patrick Merrill: And, where are we out here?

Joe Muleddy: The existing grade is about 75’.

Patrick Merrill: So, that is 81’ minus 75’... so we are 6' below the seasonal high water mark right?

Don Cook: No, it doesn't work that way.

Jim Gove: Might I address?

Phil Winslow: Please…

(23:41 elapsed)

Jim Gove: Jim Gove, Gove Environmental Services...what happens is, the seasonal high water table actually runs parallel with the grade, especially if you don't have any restrictive layers that are making it come to the surface. And so, in essence, what happens here is that, as the grade continues down, it runs parallel to the grade, however, we do, I believe, at some point, with depth, and I didn't find it..... in the test pits, but I think, at depth, at some point, we do happen to have some clay down here and what we found as far as test pits in this area is that we actually had a seasonal high water table in the vicinity of 18" rather than the 30" and 36"...actually it ranged between 36" in the field to 29" in the field... but, in essence, what happens is the water table, the estimated seasonal high water table, runs pretty much with the grade as a parallel until it runs into something that causes it to come to the surface, and right down here we'll see a point where it comes to the surface.

Carol Mennard: Can I make a comment...Carol Mennard, 495 South Road, just for clarification....I thought at the meeting, the Planning Board meeting, there was discussion of punching through the clay at the center of the rain garden....that there would be 2 feet of excavation and it would be punched through that clay layer…but you just said you didn't find it in the test pit so now I am confused.

Jim Gove: I didn't find it…any clay in the test pits.

Joe Muleddy: One test pit that we did find, we had restrictive clay layer.

Jaci Grote: So you did different test pits?

Joe Muleddy: Yes, we did.

Don Cook: That was to the road…

Jim Gove: OK, good.

Don Cook: On the right hand of the stone wall is property line...going onto the back section now here...and it just follows straight down to the pond.

Phil Winslow: Don, where is that again?

Don Cook: We’re just about crossing the match line now...the stone wall runs all the way down and there's a jog and this is where the pond is and I've actually opened up a path...if anyone wants to see the pond.

Phil Winslow: A beautiful piece of property.

Don Cook: Yeah, very nice, I get out here by myself and it's crazy quiet...so these yellow flags right here are the wetlands buffers.

Kim Reed: Don, when you start talking, could you wait until a majority of the group is with you, because I think when you are talking most of the group is still behind.

Don Cook: You're right.  If you see on the plan…should I wait a little more...we have a long way to go so I just want to make sure everybody has enough time out here.

Kim Reed: Is this talking about wetlands?

Don Cook: I was just trying to give an idea where we are...we’re coming up on the wetlands.

Jaci Grote: Jim? Sally?

Don Cook: Sally has already been out here...Sally has walked it with the Conservation.

Kim Reed: Well then we don’t probably need to wait for them.

(27:78 elapsed)

Don Cook: So these yellow flags are the wetlands buffer... the 75' buffer if you look off to your left you can just see little glimpses of pink flags, they really blend in well with the background...there's one right there but they come up to right here and so this wetlands is this line as approaches the edge of the woods road and as you can see...its just the ruts from the woods road that actually, I guess, sort of just created the wetland...right there...so the woods road and the wetland run parallel as we're coming up on that right now to the wetlands crossing.

Kim Reed: So the woods road and the wet run parallel? Did you say?

Don Cook: So the woods road on the plan and the edge of the wet...so the woodlands is to the right of the wet... the woods road…

Kim Reed: And they run parallel?

Don Cook: Correct.

Kim Reed: Thank you.

Jeff Quinn: Don, what is the distance from the traverse there… from…

Don Cook: Not sure what your question is.

Jeff Quinn: From the wetland...what's this?

Don Cook: Well, it's about  an inch on a scale of 40’ so 40'…50' of actual wetland....you're going to walk right across it, you'll see it.

Don Cook: Again, here is the first wetland’s flag on here and connects to that one you'll see another one up there...and sort of heads up where you can see light right there...that's the wetland area right in through there.

Jerry Gittlein: Don, we've gone past any of the lots that you've proposed on this first...right?

(28:58 elapsed)

Don Cook: Yes...if we did the house up there and did not do anything on the back, we wouldn’t come beyond here except for the septic.

Phil Winslow: I’m sorry, Don. Except for what?

(29:08 elapsed)

Don Cook: Except for the leach field that we want to propose to put across the wet.

Phil Winslow: OK.

Tim Losik: Tim Losik, 525 South Road...If the house is located at the, this end of this lot....where is that 70' by 80' rectangle that was referenced as a possible building area?

The wetlands crossing and discussion of septic issues on Lot 5 (29:32 elapsed)

Don Cook: I don’t have that on here specifically, Tim, but it has to be outside...has to have a certain setback from the property line, a certain 75' from the wetlands, so the spot that's left...it sort of straddles this line right on here, the match line that matches this plan to that plan.

Tim Losik: OK...so it has to be inside the buffer, is what you're saying. Thank you.

Don Cook: Yes... with a special exemption you can put a driveway in the buffer but you can't build in it.

Phil Winslow: Don, again the pink flags are the wetlands itself?

Don Cook: Yes, they say right on them, wetlands delineation. Again, the stone wall on the right side is still the property line.

Kim Reed: Is this the narrow portion of Lot 5?

Don Cook: Yes, it’s right through here.

Kim Reed: OK.

(30:47 elapsed)

Don Cook: So, if we were to do anything with the wetlands, I just want to point out, what the wetland crossing would be, from this point here to that flag. So, Tim (Phoenix), do you want to hold that (plan) and I’ll just pace that out? About 50’, ..1’, ..2’, …3’, from that point to this point, this is the actual wetlands, not the buffer.

(31:01 elapsed) 

Don Cook: You can see the actual part…where the water…that I’ve observed it, is a relatively narrow section right through here.

Jeff Quinn: So you just pointed out this traverse that I was referring to?  

Don Cook: Yes, this is the first time we’ve crossed the wetland. We’ve run parallel with it but this is the first time we’ve crossed it.

(31:36 elapsed)

Jeff Quinn: Don, you are proposing on the septic, pipe???

Don Cook: Yes, we can do a radial drill.

Jeff Quinn: How deep would that pipe go and will it start to come uphill at this last marker here?  

Don Cook: I can show you where the pit tests were, where we proposed to do the leach field and, I believe, it has to be, you want to keep below frost with it, so you’re 4 ft.  

Jeff Quinn: Do you know whether that would get into the clay?

Don Cook: I do not know.  We haven't done any pit tests right in this immediate area right here.  

Priscilla Jenness: And this leach field, is this for one house?  

Don Cook: This is what we're talking about today. Yes M’aam.

Priscilla Jenness: For just one house.

Jaci Grote: On Lot 5.

Don Cook: Yes, we’ve done several pits in this area, the soils are very good on the upland that we are going to walk to.

Priscilla Jenness: And the house, that house, would be Lot 5, back here?  

Don Cook: Back to the circle.

Don Cook: We've actually done four, maybe five homes where the leach field for various reasons are significant, hundreds of feet away....because a septic tank, without getting too graphic keeps all the solids, so what goes on is just gray water, so you’re pumping it through a 2” pipe, so it’s basically like a sump pump that pumps…

(32:45 elapsed)

Jaci Grote: Will you show me on the map….where is the house going to be…the house is going to be where? Yeah…But, I want to see it on that map…please.

Don Cook: The problem is that it straddles both….it’s like half into this map and half onto this one.

Jaci Grote: OK, I can visualize.

Don Cook: Anywhere inside of the setback line and outside here of the wetlands buffer line.

Jaci Grote: So then… and, where are we now on this map?

Phil Winslow: (inaudible)

Don Cook: We are down right here.

Jaci Grote: So why do we have to have the leach field so far over there?  

Don Cook: The perk tests were not good enough up there… just on this lot…  

Sally King: Where was it perked?

Don Cook: Pardon me?

Sally King: Sally King, 555 Wallis Road…Where did you perk it up there?

Don Cook: Ah…coming down the right side of the road, excuse me, the right as we walked down. The left side as we were looking back up that way. There are blue flags. I believe most of the pits were all blue flags.

Phil Winslow: Is there any possibility of having a septic on a different lot instead of going back into Lot 5, could it be on Lot 4 or Lot 3? 

Don Cook: You can do that but you would need, probably a variance…I guess, Tim? Because the regulations say each house lot should have it’s own. 

Sally King: They've done it on Harbor Road.  

Phil Winslow: We have it on…

John Chagnon: You could show that as the 4K area for this lot, and then you probably, with an easement, you might be able to put the system on another lot.  

Sally King: What about a different type of system?

John Chagnon: You have to show a 4K on each lot, a suitable septic area on the lot to meet the subdivision rules.  

Phil Winslow: Oh, OK, but you don't have to use it?  

Jim Gove: If I may…the situation is that even though we didn't get the 24" plus to seasonal high water table in that direction, as far as the State of NH is concerned, those are terrific soils still to put a septic system on.  Now, we did get plenty of seasonal high water depth in this area over here, ah, and yeah and certainly would be, meets the requirement of having what you need for a 4K area on that lot.  But, you know, if you're looking back at that area, up there outside of the wetland buffer it’s, as far as the STNH is concerned you can build just a fine septic system out there, it is the local regulation here, it’s the requirement 24” of seasonal high.  

(35:26 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: We appreciate that…our concern, the sense from the Planning Board is that anything near the well head is of real concern, so if we could move the septic away from the well head it would certainly, I think, facilitate the application.

(35:42 elapsed)

Sally King: Phil…what about a different type of septic? Like an aerobic septic or some…have they examined different types?  They build them on the beach all the time.

Don Cook: I just call them high tech septic systems. John, what's the number?

John Chagnon: It still has to meet your rules, the problem is that the Town doesn’t recognize the soil as suitable for leaching unless it has to have its own water table so…

Sally King: This doesn't meet our rules (wetland crossing) so you need a variance for this, so you need a variance for that.

Jon Chagnon: We are not putting a septic here, so as far as the septic system goes, there are certain areas that are acceptable.  Certainly, if we did a more advanced type treatment system that would help things but you still have to have the criteria for the leach field.  

Jim Raynes: How far away from where the house is sited… right now?  

Don Cook: 300 feet… 350 feet? 

Jim Raynes: The additional cost for putting it this far and even farther would be the same as the additional cost you’re saying about, for a better system?

Don Cook: No matter what, Jim, we’re going to put…if we do something on here, I call it the Septic Tech, that was the type they approved for Marjorie Way, so you might be familiar with there…there are other systems made by other companies that…they reduce the leach field, the one on Marjorie Way, by 75%... size… it was a tiny leach field for a four bedroom house, it just really filters out everything before it goes into the ground, well I won’t say everything, but a lot …and I have no issue doing those.

Jim Raynes: If you’re putting a line over 300 ft, do you know the cost of that, versus the cost having a more modern system or whatever nearer the house?  

John Chagnon: Rough numbers? Ah… It would be more expensive to do an advanced treatment system… probably…

Jim Raynes: But it’s better.

Don Cook: Yeah, I’m not concerned… that kind of money doesn’t make a difference... A $10k swing when you’re talking about having a better system that’s better for the well…

Jim Raynes: A system like that that’s nearer the house does less damage overall than going this far with your line.

(37:58 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: Don, correct me if I'm wrong, but, as I see, there are three options:  one is a septic line on the back lot as you have it proposed here, the second would be to get an exception for having an aerobic or a high tech septic system nearer to the house, and then the third option would be to have the septic system on an alternate lot.

Don Cook: Yes correct.

Phil Winslow: And…they all have different complexities of course, but those would be the three options. Are there other options that you can see?  

Don Cook: That we can approach and ask for a special exemption and put a driveway and put the house and everything on that side.  

Phil Winslow: OK, but, again... I think….from a Planning Board standpoint, you'd want to get as far from the wellhead as possible, in this direction.  

Don Cook: Well, but if the hydrogeological study can prove that the septic system is doing no harm to the wells…that’s my…I don't want to build a house and jeopardize, you know, polluting a well... I mean I want to make a living, but I’m not gonna pollute the town… you know… trying to build an extra house on here…  I rely on the experts and you folks do too, I guess… so… I don't have the education to say whether a leach field here is going to hurt or not hurt the well.  But, that’s who we hire and the town engineer, I’m assuming, will oversee.

(39:53 elapsed)

Jim Raynes: You're still going to have a wetland crossing here and that’s something we really, the Conservation really does not look forward to having a wetland crossing for one house when it could be done at another, a different system could be put in.  You hear me, Don…

Don Cook: Yes, I understand your opinion.

(40:04 elapsed)

Carol Mennard: Carol Mennard, 495 South Road…Could you, Mr. Gove, please explain where the test pits…is this a test pit right here (referring to map)?

Don Cook: No… yes, I’m sorry it is.

Carol Mennard: On Lot 5 and how many did you do in Lot 5? 

Jim Gove: Well, I guess probably…

Don Cook: Jim, could I jump in for a second.

Jim Gove: You guys did some more. 

Don Cook: We flagged the wetlands first and then we paced off to get the 75’ so we had we had to do the pit tests beyond the 75'…so…and Mr. Gove…

Jim Gove: In total, because at this particular point in time we didn’t know where the lots were, so in total when I did the pits out here, I did 15 pits and I think you guys did some more.

Joe Muleddy: We did another half dozen or so.  

Don Cook: Yeah…Some of them were just ledge probe pits to see if there was any ledge.

Jim Gove: I don't really know how many were on Lot 5 because at that time I didn’t know any of the lot lines.

Carol Mennard: Then perhaps you could answer, were there any pits done in this area (pointing to map).

Don Cook: No, I did them, I was there for all…

Joe Mulledy: No…the test pits that were done are shown by that symbol there.

Carol Mennard: So why weren’t…

John Chagnon: So if you pick the best spot in an area and the test doesn't pass, you move on to another area, so it didn’t make sense to do more pits.

John Chagnon: Does that make sense to you?

Don Cook: You have to do two pits within 50'..this is 40’ scale so you have to…

Jim Gove: In truth, what happened was, from that pit there’s a gradual, we’re gradually going down slope and, if you take a look, I mean, you'll notice that the vegetation changes as you come further this way, closer to the wetlands, it actually becomes much denser .... you start to pick up a few of the wetland species coming in and then of course you actually get to the dominance of wetland vegetation here.  And so those are all indicative that your water table is getting closer and close to the surface, so when you have one that’s on the upper part, that's not so hot, ahh… 18’, then as you move down slope and you see these changes that take place in the vegetation, you can be fairly certain that you are not going to get any better.  

Carol Menard: Well, I’m just confused, because I see three here, one's actually in the buffer, so that doesn't make sense to me, that you couldn’t, you’d do more here, to just to investigate more… that’s…

Don Cook: We thought we were outside the buffer but when the surveyors came out, they said oop you weren’t, so we did another one which passed.

Carol Menard: And, these three all passed?

Don Cook: Yes.

Jim Gove: The interesting thing here is, on the other side, we have the topography raises much faster, where this is a very gradual slope as we come down this way.

Carol Mennard: I can see that.

John Chagnon: You'll see it, I think, when we go further on, that as Mr. Gove said, if you look at the ground as we go past and go beyond to where the other three pits were, intuitively, you’ll be able to see that it’s better.

Carol Menard: I just wanted….you know… to get a sense of the representation in both areas… you know…of the testing.  

(43:10 elapsed)

Tim Losik: Just one question, Don, Mr. Cook… I don't know if you looked at pulling back… is it an option to pull the cul-de-sac back to give you a little more latitude on Lot 5?  

Don Cook: No, each lot has to have 200' frontage, so we started at front, went 200’, acre and a half, 200', acre and a half, and that’s why the cul-de-sac…it would be to our advantage to shorten it because we’re paying for it.

Joe Muleddy: We looked at pulling it back in and it just blows the lots out.

Tim Losik: The lots don’t conform?

Joe Muleddy: They don’t conform.

John Chagnon: If you could, you could do that, if you were allowed to have less than the 200' for lot 5.  

(?) Meaning a variance?  

Jim Raynes: You would need a waiver from the ZBA, right??

John Chagnon: It would be a variance.

Several concur… variance.

Don Cook: OK… keep walking?

(43:59 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: So that’s a fourth alternative then.

Patricia Losik: So, if you pulled the cul-de-sac back, then you’re less proximate to this corner (points to map)…perhaps?

John Chagnon: That would be true.

Patricia Losik: I'm just talking about a maintenance issue where now heavy storms, salted snow, is proximate…whatever the issues are… but, you then give some more latitude in that corner…

Patrick Merrill: Patrick Merrill, 494 Central Road, I come from a kind of a family of development.  Couldn't you capitalize on the larger property out back here if you're applying for any kind of variances or special circumstances, could you site multiple septic fields/leach fields in the front more desirable locations away from the well and build, you have 27 acres, you could build quite a few more homes and make a little more money.

Don Cook: 35 acres.  

Patrick Merrill: Well so 35 acres…I don’t have my figures correct…what would be…why would you stop at 5…why wouldn’t you?  

Don Cook: We were making every attempt to design a subdivision that didn’t need any variances, any special exemptions, any or limited waivers. I think one of the few waivers that we were looking for is with the back land you’re supposed to do a topo, but we have no intention, I mean we are only like a third of the way back…there’s still, I don’t intend to walk the whole thing, I’ll walk it anytime someone wants to. But that would be a simple waiver we are looking for…if we are not going to set foot on it, why would we need to do a topo…

Patrick Merrill: So, the short answer would be that the back 35 acres, if you will …for someone like me who is a recreational hunter and enjoys the back 35 acres,…the short answer would be, it that’s out of play.  

Don Cook: It is economically unfeasible for us and you’re only allowed a 600’ road and even with a waiver we’d need a 3000’ road and I wouldn’t even ask for it.  

Patricia Losik: Don, before… one of the abutters also raised…I don’t mean to speak about just this corner (points to map) but also the other corner, because we're talking about 15’ there and about 15-20’ feet there, so pulling that back would create greater distance to both of those abutters.

Don Cook: It would.

Patricia Losik: And, I think that is the Ireland property. Thank you. 

Don Cook: Yes, it is.

(46:59 elapsed)

Don Cook: So, we're going to head uphill to this large area of upland right here.  The wetland, you can see fairly clearly off to the right, with these wetland flags, it gets further and further away, and the upland gets wider and wider.  These blue flags to your left are where we did the pit tests, they’re shown on the plan.  This one was too close so we did two more up on the hill.  The wetlands flag right there on the right and you can see them continue on.  Where you see the sunlight over there on the right hand side, down, whatever that is, 100 yards down there, that's the pond there.  They dredged the pond when this used to be a strawberry farm and pumped the water up to the field to irrigate the strawberries.  So it's a man made pond but certainly a wetland.

Phil Winslow: Don, was this road used for access back here for the farm?

Don Cook: No one’s… Yes, the beginning… yes.

Don Cook: So, the yellow, right here, this is the 75' buffer, the wetlands you can see, again, it gets further and further away from this potentially buildable area.  I don't know what the purpose, you know, Bonnie called it a logging road. But the neighbor said it wasn’t logged, so I’m not sure… I cleared out a little brush but you can see though it's been maintained for years....anytime…there was…this here was the only thing to keep you from driving the family car down here.

Kim Reed: Don’t continue talking too far… separated…

Don Cook: You can see from the trees that have been cut, I’ve cut some recently just to keep my truck and we need to get a backhoe back in here for pit tests.  The road has been maintained for a long, long time…you see a lot of these trees have been cut away and have obviously been there for a long time.  Somebody at the Planning Board meeting, alleged this was not a road but I’m not sure what you would call it if it wasn’t a road, it sure looks like a road to me.  

Carol Menard: Excuse me…Carol Menard, 495 South Road… We are, right here (map)…where the tests pits were.

Don Cook: See the yellow flags.

Carol Menard:  So, for some reason one of your maps didn't have the effluent flow direction.  It did on all the other leach proposals but did not on this one and my understanding is that it would go here (pointing) because it would have to go there and Bailey’s Brook is right here. Is that correct? (discussion of location of brook)  

Patricia Losik: Bailey’s Brook is over here (pointing to map).

Don Cook: (adjusts map orientation to locate Bailey’s Brook)

Carol Menard: So, my first question, why wasn't there an effluent flow drawn on that map, I don’t know what sheet it was, so that we could get a sense of where/what that would impact.  

Don Cook: Once again, we hired the experts and I have no, I don't have the credentials to say anything about the flow of that. But, if we need to, we can get the people who drew up that Geo/Hydrogeologic…they could come speak to the Planning Board if need be.  

Patricia Losik: Is that in the drainage study?

Don Cook: Yes.  

Patricia Losik: So it’s shown in vectors?

Joe Muleddy: The hydrogeologic study.

Patricia Losik: Which is different than the drainage study?

Don Cook: I’m sorry, yes, yes… even… I know building but I am not an engineer.

Joe Muleddy: There’s a storm water management plan, that’s it’s official rainfall run off and then there’s the hydrogeologic assessment.

Patricia Losik: We’ve looked at the hydro but we haven’t looked at the other drainage study, so on the drainage study, is that shown…that flow?

Joe Muleddy: No, I think what she’s talking about that’s where you see the effluent flow… that’s on the hydrogeologic study.

Patricia Losik: That piece is not on the hydro study… we’ve looked at that…

Carol Mennard: For some reason… I just thought it was odd…

Joe Muleddy: Noted…OK, we’ll make sure it gets on there.

Carol Mennard: Thank you.

Don Cook: OK… The property line to our left is the stone wall and you see it just keeps getting wider and wider. The yellow flags on the right are the 75’ buffer, you can see the wetlands at the bottom of the hill….it actually very clearly just shows you what Jim said, the vegetation changes…it’s quite obvious to anybody…it goes from one type of soil right to a wetlands soil.

Phil Winslow: The trees in here look like they are 40 or 50 years old?

Don Cook: I think that’s a good guess, there’s a mix of these, there’s a lot of nice oaks mixed in with the evergreens…I’ll let everybody catch up.

Kim Reed: How far are you walking Don?

Don Cook: I was going to call it a night right here…I will go as far as anyone wants but I don’t think you’re going to see much more…I just want to let everybody to catch up  

(53:09 elapsed)

Jaci Grote: So I have question on the well, the water, the kind of well that is being used that is, that the Rye Water District has, is a deep well? 

Don Cook: You have to ask Kenny about that.

Jaci Grote: Rivercine…he was just talking about that today.

Don Cook: He said there’s bedrock wells and gravel wells, but I am not familiar…

Jaci Grote: … So, and do we have… we’ll have to ask him…where is Ken?

Don Cook: He’s way in the back.

(calling for Ken)

Jaci Grote: So I’m not sure that the…so it’s, from what he said, the beginning, it’s more difficult to detect, the water source for a bedrock well.

Don Cook: Yes.

Jaci Grote: And so, from a, the shallower well you can, it’s easier to detect the water source and the kind of hydrological study that was done was for the other kind of well as opposed to the bedrock well.

Don Cook: You’re getting beyond my area of expertise and I don't believe Kenny is, I’m not trying to be a wise guy, but I don’t think Kenny is a hydrogeologist either, he's listening to people who are telling him things… we need to get experts involved and I’m not that person.

Sally King: Do you have one? Hydrologist.

Ralph Hickson: The third Commissioner was at the Tuesday meeting… Ralph Hickson, Commissioner… he is very familiar with HS and worked in it for many years for the government and he is the one who made the statement this is the incorrect type of hydrological study for a bedrock well… he couldn’t be here today but that was his opinion for the Rye Water District.

Don Cook: I’d will be glad to meet with the Water Department, like I said, we don’t want to do any harm, certainly don't want to do any harm to the wells or the environment.  

Don Cook: So, I was going to stop here tonight. This is the back… if you saw the overall plan, it just falls off a little bit, in fact there is what I call the ear…if you look at the big plan, there’s this little ear that drops down between these stone walls and goes down to the Bailey’s Brook I guess. That’s your property sir.

Bud Barrett: Bud Barrett, 290 West Road…Where on this area here is your proposed leach field for lot 5?  

Don Cook: As soon as we crossed the wetland I pointed out on the right, left, excuse me, where the blue flags are. Where we crossed the wetland. We’ve since done pits here just to see what’s going on and the soils actually get as you get further as you get, the better the soils are.

Don Cook: This stone wall you can see on the right goes here, a little bit of a dogleg if you look at the overall plan…this wall (explains location of group on map) 

Phil Winslow: Could you show us where we are (map)?  

Don Cook: On this little map right here, see what I call the ear, that little dogleg…that little peninsula goes out right to there, kind of a funny shape to the whole property and you can see we are roughly a little bit more than half way back on the property and we have no intentions of doing anything, this back 17-20 acres is all out that way and it’s another long walk.  

Bud Barrett: Don, on this, right here…where along there would that leach field be? Approximately…

Don Cook:  Right about there… (Don shows on the map)  I’ll show you when we come back through.

Bud Barrett: How big a leach field is this going to be?

Don Cook: We typically always do a 4…even if we do a 3 bedroom house, I like to do a 4 bedroom leach field so it’s sufficient to handle the load.

Ken Aspen: Someone said there was a question about the type of hydrology report.  Yeah, they are different….bedrock well would be more difficult and more intense.  To put in simple analogy… they would put a series of holes, so straws in the ground around a perimeter and then you’d go to the source of the water and you would pump it at a specific volume of water for specific amount time and what they do they is they go back to where all the straws are poked in around that source of the water and they can get an idea of which direction the water is flowing from by the depth of water in those wells, that's how they do it.

Don Cook: And we are roughly how far from the closest well?

Ken Aspen: We discussed this before and I believe 800-1200 feet somewhere in there… I don’t know.

Don Cook: OK…we’ll find out before the next meeting.

Ken Aspen: Maybe another study ought to be implemented to find that out.

Don Cook: Whatever it takes.

Ralph Hickson: That's what Art said on Tuesday.  

Ken Aspen: That’s what Art Ditto said, he is familiar with that type of well.  He was involved with the closing of some of the areas over at Pease.

Don Cook: OK, that's what we need, people who know.

The group heads back (58:22 elapsed)

Don Cook: Going to turn around and head back (walking).   

Kim Reed: Will he conclude the meeting when we get back?

Phil Winslow: Yes… noted that Don would point out about where the leach field is.

(Note: Don Cook and Bud Barrett discuss aspects (location and tree composition) of Mr. Barrett’s meadow and Bailey’s Brook and Mr. Barrett notes that part of Bailey’s Brook runs through a corner of his property).

Don Cook: That little ear I was talking end of the ear is actually where the brook it’s almost like they created that ear so they could go down and get water out of the brook or something.

Don Cook: I had no idea there would be this many folks.  

Bud Barrett: There is a lot of interest…this is a very unique ecosystem here. You’ve approximately 1 square mile of untouched mixed hardwoods and some conifers that turns out to be about the proper size for a herd of deer and we’ve got 15-18 of them that come from here and go across on Sleeper's property every night.  

Don Cook: You asked me about the pits right there.  That’s the wetlands buffer, we found out the first one was too close to the buffer. We paced it out and did another one and another one beyond that.

Bud Barrett: Now my other question is what kind of a buffer zone between my property and the edge of your leach field?

Don Cook: I can get you that info, I don’t know if I can give it to you right now…well here is the setback but you’re over here (shows setback on map).  

Don Cook: Someone was asking about the pit test on Lot 5, it's right here to your left, the blue flag is where we did the pit test.  And somebody asked why we didn’t do any more and then Jim’s (Gove) opinion, is that he knows the soil its not going to change from here to here to here so that’s where we did the pit test.

General discussions amongst attendees

Patrick Merrill: How long ago did you do the pit tests?  

Don Cook: July…June/July.  I think June, when I first signed.  Before I would sign a P and S, I did enough pit tests to know that the soil was going to meet the town standards.

Phil Winslow: Do we have any other questions because we will conclude the meeting if we don’t.

Jerry Gittlein: I move we conclude the meeting of the site walk.

(second from Jeff Quinn?)

Vote taken…all in favor.

(1:05:38 elapsed)

Phil Winslow: Thanks everybody for coming.